I was hiking in Iceland this past summer. We were pretty high up – around 1,000 meters – and it was raining hard, high wind, snow on the ground.
“Damn, it’s cold,” grumbled one of my American companions.
An Englishman behind us stumbled over a patch of frozen volcanic ash. “There’s a clue in the name, mate,” he offered helpfully.
Some things are so obvious they really don’t need to be explained anymore. Like it’s icy in Iceland. Like it sucks working at a big law firm. You kinda ought to know that by now…
…which is why interviewing 2L’s feels so heart-breaking.
I should know, I’ve been listening to senior and mid-level associates for the past month, telling me how much it sucks interviewing 2L’s.
Why? Because if you hate them, you’re interviewing someone you hate. And if you like them…then you feel a moral obligation to clue them in on the hellish misery they’re clambering to claim for themselves.
It’s hard not to hate law students, especially from the vantage point of a senior or mid-level associate. They’re clueless, and yes, many conform to the worst stereotypes. There’s always the tall dork who wears a suit to class and raises his hand to ask obvious, meandering questions. There’s the girl with hair dangling over her face, who trails the professor after class to smarm, in her peculiarly nasal voice, over the subtle charms of today’s lecture. We all hate them.
One of my senior associate clients reserves her remaining tolerance for part-time law students. “At least they’ve got a clue,” she says. Maximum disdain is reserved for the full-timers who slid into law school directly out of undergrad, scribbling their name on loan documents like so many fevered lemmings racing to be the first off a ledge.
The worst story I’ve heard so far came from a mid-level associate, miserable and deeply in debt, who interviewed the obnoxious 2L son of a huge corporate client’s CEO. While this over-privileged sack of ordure grinned in his preppy suit and barely bothered answering her questions, she returned to an old fantasy of firing a pistol into her mouth in the firm’s dining room, taking special care to splatter the head of litigation.
(Hey, it’s her fantasy. And yes, as her therapist, I strongly disapprove.)
Anyway, CEO, Jr. knew and she knew and everyone else knew he already had the job. She left the interview feeling dirty. That was an extreme case.
On the other hand, sometimes you meet a law student you like – someone you want to help. That’s when you face the real agony.
One client was asked by a friend at the firm to assist a woman he’d called back. Her grades weren’t great, but she was older, and smart and together – not your usual 2L – and he plain liked her.
“So I meet with this woman, and he’s right, she’s terrific. And that’s the weird part. All I could think was – how can I warn you away?”
He knew perfectly well she’d hate it at the firm. Everyone hated it at the firm. He described the place as “utterly toxic” and “filled with assholes.”
He ended up doing what most associates with a heart do in these situations – hinting broadly something might be rotten in the state of Denmark. To his way of thinking, that was all he could do – and what he had to do. But she didn’t seem to hear. At one point she actually told him she was “looking forward to becoming a part of the firm.” He stared back in disbelief.
I reminded him none of that mattered.
Why?
Okay – here’s the big reveal: Because they already know.
At least, the smart ones do. C’mon…2L’s aren’t entirely cloaked in ignorance anymore – how could they be? Half their class (at least – probably more like three-quarters) won’t get jobs, and they know it. The news is out. Firms aren’t hiring big classes of juniors anymore. As one senior partner told me recently: “those days are over.”
2L’s don’t care about your warnings. They know how bad it is. At very least, they’ve heard the stories.
Why don’t they care?
Duh. Now you’re acting clueless. $180k in school loans ring a bell? That’s why.
At this point no one’s pretending there’s any difference between law firms. No one’s pretending they’re excited to be a part of Evil & Evil. They simply need an offer – any offer. They need to pay loans.
Here’s a tougher question. I was debating with a junior partner client whether a 2L with average grades at an average law school isn’t better off quitting now, and giving up.
Sound insane? He’s nearly done, you insist – only that final, pointless third year, and the bar exam, and he’s set! But stop, and think it through. That final year costs at least $60k. That’ll take two years – minimum – to pay off. He probably won’t get a job, either. If he does, it’ll be insurance defense at a sweatshop in East Dubuque – earning about $60k, working day, night and weekends.
See my point? It makes sense to quit – “take a leave of absence” – and save the $60k. Then you’re only looking at $120k in loans, not $180k. That’s a big difference. And it’s not like the JD’s gonna do you any good. You won’t earn any more with it – but you will end up deeper in debt, stuck in the worst job in the world.
If you’re going to take the leap and “tell them,” then tell them the whole truth. Yes, your firm is a hell-hole. They already know that – and they still need the money.
Tell them they should drop out, prontissimo, and do something – anything – else.
========
This piece is part of a series of columns presented by The People’s Therapist in cooperation with AboveTheLaw.com. My thanks to ATL for their help with the creation of this series.
If you enjoy these columns, please check out The People’s Therapist’s new book, Way Worse Than Being a Dentist: The Lawyer’s Quest for Meaning
I can also heartily recommend my first book, “Life is a Brief Opportunity for Joy”.
(Both books are also available on bn.com.)
Awesome. Great to have you back!
A law degree can be useful. In Australia and Canada where tuition fees remain reasonnable, you are free to leave the big firms for a less paid but comfortable normal job in a bank or an insurance company. I know some lawyers who are now working in claims or as insurance underwriter and they seem to enjoy it (especially the hours).
Woe is me. Life is horrible. I’m a mid-level associate at a large law firm. Please put me out of my misery. Whine whine whine. Sniffel sniffel cry. Every article the same. Never anything new.
this blog is utterly toxic. glad you’ve found therapy though.
Why is this a binary system? Biglaw or quit? How about small firms, government, defense law? I went to a small firm and lived in penury for 10 years but I paid the loans, actually learned how to be a lawyer, and 15 years out, am debt free and still loving going to work every day.
L – Genuinely curious here. What are you up to now and why do you love it? Trying to figure out my next step after 4 years in big law…
I loved it for 10 years in private practice (first a three-lawyer firm where I was associate and then my own firm with a partner). I argued four cases before the State Supreme Court on my own within five years of graduating from law school. I was handed files and told to run with them, while also having a wonderful support system in the two partner/mentors. I learned how to practice–everything from what clerks to ask for favors to how to tell a client he or she had no case to researching choice of law for a pleading.
I am now in-house at a nonprofit doing a lot of what I did before (real estate, corporate, employment), but don’t have to worry about billing, paying the secretary, or buying a new copier (law firm management gave me hives). My hands-on experience with transactional and litigation in the real world now is invaluable in this company.
Basically, I have been practicing law, real nuts and bolts, for 15 years. But, I made very little money for a good while and just paid off the loans 10 years out. Then I could start saving and buying a house, but it was worth it. I love the law.
Good luck to you. I hope you find happiness!
PS: I went to a top 10 school where the only option presented was Biglaw, so I was especially weird to do what I did, but I always have swum against the current……
I found that not billing hours in a small contingency fee practice got rid of a lot of the stress, which eliminated the panic attacks.
I did the penury thing. in fact, I still do the penury thing. I’m much more interested in speculating in the stock market than I am in actually buying things, so I just kind of collect the money in a big puddle.
I’m not particularly materialistic, but I am extremely competitive. Go figure. There isn’t anything to “win” once you get out of school, though, because it’s impossible to run all the boards and beat absolutely everyone at everything. Maybe if education wasn’t geared as a competition where you are rewarded when you prove that you are better than other people. Granted, I do feel like I’m “losing” with respect to my income and wealth, but that’s just me. I like to keep score and I like to have the highest score.
Practicing law is unpleasant, mostly because it’s extremely boring and of no interest to me. And I’m actually helping people, so I get thank you cards with smiley faces. Just got one last week.
A -effing men! After 10 years of practicing law, I finally “deprogrammed” myself to stop looking for the next “objective” and started looking at practicing law as a paycheck to fund the things that make me happy. A HUGE part of associate depression is the feeling that you are “lost” or “stuck in the mud”; you have spent your entire life trying to achieve “goals”= grades, diplomas, credentials on your resume. When you get in the real word, you realize, there is no “winner” anymore, unless you keep score by salary and that “winning” in terms of professional accomplishments is not satisfying because so much of “winning” in law has nothing to do with how hard you work or how smart you are. Then you become even further depressed because you spent 1/2 your life spurning friendships and good times to “work hard”–all for something you despise. At this point, you have 2 choices: 1) go “all in”, sell your soul and play the partnership track game, knowing that divorce, alcoholism, and a heart attack are soon to follow; or 2) content yourself with being a “mediocre” attorney; collect your paycheck, do the bare minimum not to get fired, and actually try and enjoy life for once.
I chose the latter path.
Thanks for your postings! It’s helping me get through my days here until I can figure out a way out.
Wow, I don’t even know where to start: it is all true, but the personalities and resulting perspectives are so very warped. First, why would you hate interviewing law students? Yes, they are socially unpleasent people and malformed, but so too is (likely) the interviewer, and the interviewee is trying, perhaps fawningly, but nonetheless really straining to summon all his/her social ability to be pleasent and at least seem decent. So what is the problem?
They probably are able to seem decent. Your client interviewing CEO Jr. is a prime example of this malformation. Why does she care that he already has the job? Is he more socially mal-adjusted than the other likely hire? Not likely. I mean really, why would anyone have that reaction? It is completely abnormal. Instead, why doesn’t she put her sunk time to use? She could say, ‘Well we both know you probably have the job and my unimportant questions are taking up time and have no utility. Let’s go get a young congac at the ground floor before your next rotation.’ She could get a work break that way and maybe make an ally for the future. But I suspect she went into some very unusual passive-agressive sort of attack mode and he relapsed into responding back ‘with barely answering her questions’ (I extrapolate he was probably smirking in retaltion, from my experience, but hey, he probably felt provoked, and was probably being provoked).
I know I have it easier than regular attornies as a patent attorney so maybe I am a bit less constipated by the whole thing, but the hiring process of interviewing is likely not really the problem, it seems to me more the perspective of your lawyer clients that is wrong, but maybe there is some strong medication that can handle that. And if not, well then sing with me to your female CEO interviewer:
‘Suicide is painless: it brings on many changes, and if you are an ugly social parasite with the face of a leper (though as a medical man you may want to use the more diplomatic term Hanson’s disease), on the back of a 38 wadcutter you can make the world a better place if you please…’
Great to have you back!
Though I’m not sure it’s the *worst* job in the world. I can think of others I would like less. Like many opportunities, it is what you make of it.
If you are a midlevel in Biglaw and you still have law school debt, you’re terrible at managing your own money. HTFH
-V10 5th year (no debt, low 6 figure savings)
At a big firm in NYC. Love it here. Partners are great to work for. Senior associates are great to work for. Midlevels are great to work for. It’s a big firm, so I haven’t worked with everyone, but I haven’t experienced or heard any horror stories.
Yes, it’s hard work at times, but find me a job paying $160,000 base that isn’t.
The myth that there isn’t a difference between firms is just that — a myth.
Don’t work for Skadden. Don’t work for Kirkland. Cravath depends solely on the partner you’re assigned to. It can be horrific, it can be great. Other firms are mixed. That’s the case in every profession.
I’ve heard horror stories from a kindergarten teacher dealing with the administration. There are assholes out there, both in the legal world and out. Some firms have ’em in abundance, others don’t.
Well crap, why not Kirkland?
Welcome back, Will! I remember several interviews in NYC firms where people closed the door and literally said “Don’t work here.” I’m not sure those places were any worse than anywhere else, but it was definitely a sobering experience.
It’s really the debt that kills everyone. If you could go to school for free, do a couple years at a firm, then be able to quit, that’s one thing. If you know you’re stuck, it’s a whole different story.
Seriously, if you know anyone considering taking out loans for law school, please make them read this: http://thegirlsguidetolawschool.com/09/law-school-myth-2-student-loan-debt-is-good-debt/.
Why I think the ATL comments on your columns are so full of vitriol: no one likes to be called a prostitute when there is some truth to it.
You are merely noting in your columns that some of us work crazy hours for abusive people. And why? For a lot of money, plain and simple, there is no other reason to work for most of big law. This makes us prostitutes.
I think there are three types of lawyers who do not enjoy working at their firms. There are those of us who try to construct a complicated set of lies to convince ourselves that we are not prostitutes and there are legitimate reasons other than money for why we work at these places. In some cases, we argue that our big law firms are not that bad because there are worse places to work. In other cases, we lie to ourselves by believing that there is nothing wrong with spending ones only life working for money.
I believe that if your column was not accurate as to my particular experience, I would either ignore your column or calmly note in the comments that my experience is different. I would not, as many of the ATL readers do, write a hysterical rejection of your analysis. Accordingly, I can only come to one conclusion, the ATL readers are trying to maintain the lies I note above and, Will, when you expose these lies, it makes us very angry.
There are a small percentage of ATL commenters who just enjoy throwing shit over everyone, but the vitriol isn’t the result of Will exposing lies, it’s the following:
1. generalizations about law firms and lawyer experiences
2. exaggeration of the cons
3. invariably no mention of the pros
4. little effort to offer solutions, other than encouragement to leave the profession entirely and/or read his books and/or come in for a session
5. lack of variety
People who work hard in a profession and see its pros and cons in a balanced way tend to get a little annoyed when they see it constantly slammed in posts that have the above flaws. That’s what it comes down to.
I completely agree with your observations of Will’s posts. I think the point is that Will’s columns are directed at a select percentage of lawyers. Maybe, he needs to be more clear as to whom he is targeting.
Also, you note that people are a little annoyed at Will’s generalizations. I disagree, most of the negative comments are disgusting and hate filled, those people are much more than a little annoyed.
PERFECTLY said, guest. Will: are there other solutions other than leaving the law in your mind? I’m honestly curious.
The answer is contained in my new book, which is available on Amazon and bn.com.
Wow. Maybe you should consult a therapist? It’s certainly entertaining to read a rant like this, but assertions that law jobs–even pretty terrible ones–are “the worst job in the world” are just evidence that you’ve never had a truly terrible job in your life.
FWIW, I think if you hate your job, the ethical thing to do is try not to interview students. They want to hear about what people who like the firm like about it. They don’t want to hear that you’ve realized you don’t want to be a lawyer. There are people out there who like lawyering, warts and all–they are the ones your 2L wants to talk to.
Law students do know the score. There shouldn’t be any agony over not telling them something they already know.
As for quitting law school if you have average grades, yeah, you can do that, but you’ll still owe money for years 1 & 2. If you’re that concerned about being so deep in debt, get a full time job and switch to the part-time program. True, you’ll have two more years of school, but you’ll be working and hopefully gaining some experience that can be leveraged for a job upon graduation.
One key thing a lot of folks overlook is specializing in an area of the law that very few folks practice. Instead of “Gender & the Law,” take an advanced government contracts or ERISA course. Yes, such courses and specialties are generally boring, but then again, so is most work that people do. The point in specializing in a boring (but necessary) area of the law is to get a job and pay off your student loans. Career satisfaction will come in a few years when you’re 30 or so. You’ll still have plenty of time to follow your bliss in to the Shangri-La of legal practice specialties (please, tell me what these are) once your loans are repaid. Worst case scenario is that you’ll turn out to like your chosen specialty, and become the go-to partner or hang out your own shingle.
Bottom line, law generally sucks as a profession. But since you chose to enter it, you might as well position yourself as much as possible to succeed. Don’t let your subjective desire for happiness 24/7 (not possible) hold you back from doing what’s necessary to remove the shackles of student loan debt.
I’m not a lawyer, but an accountant by trade. But I feel there is something that you would do well to know. It’s a concept called “Sunk Costs”. In brief, it means that money already spent is immaterial to a decision to be made (It’s more complex, but this is the coles notes here).
If you’ve spent 20k and you realize your idea is a bad one, the fact that you’ve spent that 20k should have no relevance. Is the idea still bad? If yes, then stop spending money on it. You are unlikely to recoup your costs, and if you’re spending MORE money in order to getyour bad idea completed, you’re just throwing good money after bad.
The concept of “toughing out a bad idea” is the same thing as “Sticking to the plan in the face of evidence to the contrary”. I’m sure that just about everyone can come up with at least one good personal experience where someone rode the plan down in flames instead of admitting “This was stupid” and cutting their losses.
I disagree with Will and with you in the case of Sunk Costs, for most people. I think you’re ignoring an important point, which is what happens when you apply for that next job.
It’s one thing to have a JD and apply for a job as a non-lawyer. While you may lack business skills as demonstrated by an MBA, it does show intelligence, hard work, commitment, and follow through. Companies value this, even if they won’t use your JD knowledge directly. If you just quit school, however, you lose that benefit, and you’re worse off than if you were a recent college grad. You’ll be explaining in every interview that for the last two years you’ve been in Law School, then decided to give up. Maybe you had personal reasons, maybe you wanted to avoid sunk costs, or maybe it was just too expensive, but the interviewer is probably going to assume you “couldn’t cut it.”
So I don’t think that’s good advice for most people. Even though the extra year and the extra debt may seem crushing and pointless, I think it opens more doors to finish.
I would frame this a bit differently – it’s not that I want to tell associates not to go to Big Law but rather that they need to “choose wisely” their practice area. That they should consider an exit strategy since most associates don’t make partner. Can you choose your own area or does the Firm do so for you? How broad is the practice you are interested in (if “broad” is even possible any in these days of “specialization”)? Does the firm work for clients in the local area other than in financial services/PE firms (ie, “real” companies)? Don’t go into Big Firm without a realistic exit strategy so you can make the most of your time other than paying off debt.
I agree with your posts that focus on biglaw being problematic for many attorneys, and that many people are miserable and feel stuck in their careers. Basically, you can leave the law altogether, or you can find new ways to use your law degree, either by finding a new job, working for yourself, changing your career altogether, etc. Even though the options are extremely limited nowadays for lawyers out of law school, some people learn to thrive no matter what the external circumstances are. How do they do it, given how tough things are for lawyers these days? I’d love some posts that focus on those people.
I know plenty of people that work in big law firms and they love it. This is all hype aimed to discourage promising lawyers from entering a great field in order to limit real competition in the profession.
Also, what is so bad about making $60k right out of law school? I would be very happy to make $40k-60k when I graduate, considering I only made $30k per year before law school.
Stop the BS and stop trying to smother the dreams of tomorrow’s leaders. You should be ashamed of yourself.
He isn’t saying NOT to work in BIGLAW. Only that if you choose to do so, that you make such choice with the complete set of facts – warts and all. Some people love BIGLAW, but anectdotal evidence isn’t a sufficient basis on which to make an important career decision. There is no denying that BIGLAW is primarily long hours and high stress. This is why clients turn to BIGLAW and pay such high fees. Also, it’s not appropriate to compare a $60k job to one that pays $160k. That $100k difference is a vast gulf of long hours and high stress – but it is worth earning for a few years if you’re in debt up to your eyeballs (as long as you don’t perpetuate that debt via the golden handcuffs).
BIGLAW served me well financially, but I paid a price in terms of sacrificing some of the best years of my life. Fortunately, I was able to parlay my BIGLAW experience into a nice in-house position that has given me my life back. I may be earning about what a mid-level associate makes, but I have my life back and time to raise a beautiful family. What more can one ask for?
He is ALWAYS saying not to work in biglaw. The ever-present thesis of this blog is that biglaw should be avoided. For him, biglaw is a terrible life filled with terrible people, terrible work, and terrible hours, no exceptions.
Sure, I’ve certainly heard those stories, and that’s the experience for some, but definitely not all. That’s the perspective this blog lacks – the fact that biglaw isn’t ALWAYS the worst thing in the world.
Biglaw is always the worst thing in the world.
Plenty of people love big law? I would say 10% at most.
I was told that what makes going to work manageable-even for a boring job is the co-workers. That is the problem with law, the work is not of itself bad (in big law), but the coworkers are loathsome.
TPT says:
“The worst story I’ve heard so far came from a mid-level associate, miserable and deeply in debt, who interviewed the obnoxious 2L son of a huge corporate client’s CEO. While this over-privileged sack of ordure grinned in his preppy suit and barely bothered answering her questions, she returned to an old fantasy of firing a pistol into her mouth in the firm’s dining room, taking special care to splatter the head of litigation.”
I never understand why people have suicidal fantasies or actually commit suicide (or attempt it as my clients often do).
The last person on God’s Green Earth I’m going to injure is myself because I’m not the one I have a problem with.
Agreed. I don’t understand why disdain for the interviewee would lead one to fantasies of suicide – homicide, on the other hand, now that might be logical (if a tad extreme).
Sure an average student at a tier 3 or tier 4 school is screwed. Sure an average student in a saturated city is screwed. Sure a student taking out boat-loads of debt probably made a bad decision. But there are plenty of kids out there who are making great investments by attending top schools, or schools who own the city of state they live in. And many are coming out of school with little or no debt. In that case, its almost a steal. And not finding a job, well its called networking like crazy. If you dont get or want biglaw, CSO is not going to line up mid or small firms. Go out and get it!
Shame on you is right.
Also, by your logic, then average doctors, scientists, dentists, psychotherapists, etc., should quit after their first years of school. Because they are obviously just as worthless and incapable as an average law student.
Generally, the law profession blows syphilitic goats. to go into debt to enter it is seriously warped. That’s all we need to know – end of blog! Nite nite, kiddies!
Will, what do you think about NON-Big Law? The nonprofits, government, small firms? Not that anyone in Big Law with debt would be positioned to make the switch but….maybe for a hopeful 2L? Does he have to give up law altogether to save himself? AND DON’T tell me it’s in your new book, ‘cuase your new book is your old columns.
Law firms might be great if you are one of the cantakerous, bullying ogre overlords in any given firm, although they seem miserable no matter how many Long Island estates they amass. I’ve got some law firm tales that would cause the hair of even a hardened case like Will to go all permawave. I’m thinking of lying back on his couch for a session or two just to regale him with all the sordid shockers I’ve amassed in my tenure as a staff employee (aka ‘non and/or subhuman’) in various firms through the eons. Vile!
C’mon in! My couch is all yours.