I was kidding around with some of the guys at my gym, tossing around the question – would you fight Mike Tyson for $3 million?
One of them joked – I think he heard this on Howard Stern – that he’d fellate Mike Tyson for $3 million. He could spend the first $1 million on mouthwash and retire on the rest.
Then another guy spoke up, a sometime professional heavyweight boxer. (I’m not making this up, he really has boxed, for big money, not too long ago – and has plans to do so again.)
“It’s not worth it. Mike would destroy you. There would be no retirement.”
He went on to explain what he meant. He knew from experience – this guy had been in the ring. You’d have more than bruises – you’d have concussions, brain injuries, damaged bones and joints. You’d never be the same – and it wouldn’t be worth it. You’re better off not having $3 million but appreciating the finer things, like being able to walk and talk and think.
I saw his point.
Biglaw is also not worth it, even for big money. That’s because it, too, destroys you – just like Iron Mike.
A lawyer client, a fifth year at a big firm on the West Coast, mused to me the other day – “This job wouldn’t be so bad if I didn’t end up crying alone in my office so much.”
“You mean, it wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t suck?”
“Yeah,” she said. “That’s pretty much it. Imagine doing this for ordinary money. No one would consider doing this for ordinary money.”
No one would consider fighting Mike Tyson for ordinary money, either. And it’s not worth it for $3 million. Big law isn’t even worth it for $160k a year.
Don’t believe it? Allow me to elaborate.
The process begins with sleep deprivation – plain, simple sleep deprivation. Not sleeping. Staying up all night and facing sarcasm if you plan to take the following day off.
One of my clients brought a pillow into work, so she could put her face down on her desk and sleep for an hour at a time. Her officemate saw her, and told her what a good idea it was. Then she brought in a pillow, too. Only at a law firm.
You might not think sleep deprivation is a big deal. Hell, you’re a machine. You don’t need sleep. All-nighters? No sweat.
Sleep deprivation is like binge drinking. There’s a machismo around staying up all night, night after night – like doing ten shots of tequila. You’re tough. Not a problem.
Later, as you puke your guts out and pray for sweet release, you realize you were being an idiot.
Read a few scientific studies on sleep deprivation and you will understand it fries your brain and leaves you an emotional wreck. You can’t think straight, your immune system crashes, you fall apart. As one of my senior associate clients put it, “I thought I was unflappable when I got here. I’m flapped.”
Naturally, if you aren’t sleeping, you’re also not having a life. So relationships dissolve, friendships fade, your pet starts living with your parents. And you start thinking about boinking that guy from the anti-trust group, even if he isn’t much to look at.
Okay. So why is there sleep deprivation at big law firms?
The billable hour, obviously – but also the plain fact that partners and associates are in direct opposition. There is no “team” or “spirit” at big law firms because partners and associates are there to achieve conflicting ends. One is there to destroy the other. The other is there to try to survive. It’s like Mike Tyson and you in the ring. He seeks to crush you. You cling to life – by trying to focus on the money you’re earning.
I had a partner client tell it to my face: “My firm is about partner profits. That’s it, pure and simple.”
That’s the norm. Partners are in it for the money – just like you. They are under pressure to bring in clients and produce billable hours bearing their name. A partner has no incentive to do law. Once he’s landed the fish, he hands the work to associates. Ideally, they slave away day and night, around the clock, including weekends, generating delicious, tasty, yummy, scrum-dilly-icious billable hours that funnel easy money into the partner’s pocket – and elevate him to star status at the next partners’ meeting. The more you work – the more he earns.
Some firms pay lip service to “lifestyle.” One senior associate client received a lecture on how she has to get her hours – over 3,000 last year – down to something sensible, like 2,600. Then bonuses came out, and associates who billed over 2,800 got twice the money. If you think this sends a mixed message, you are correct.
The only problem with this marvelous money-making system, according to partners (and yes, they tell me this all the time) – is that associates are incompetent, unmotivated idiots. They aren’t meticulous or thorough, and they act like they don’t even care half the time. It’s a nuisance. You have to double-check everything on Friday and re-double-check it, then send them changes over the weekend so they don’t embarrass you in front of the client. You spend half your time cursing them out for being stupid and missing things.
Why are associates such a problem? Because they don’t care half the time. Why should they? An associate – like a partner – is also in it for the money. And he gets paid whether he works or not.
What, other than money, might make an associate work? There’s the occasional crumb of praise – “nice work, kid” – but you don’t hear it often and it doesn’t mean much coming from the guy who procrastinated until midnight on Sunday to send you the changes to a brief due 9 am Monday morning.
There’s the desire to please. That lasts a little while. But again – it’s impossible to please people who view you essentially as a commodity. They are pleased when you produce money for them. Then they throw you out and get another associate.
There’s bonuses. But lawyer bonuses – even “big” lawyer bonuses – are little more than anemic hand-outs intended to keep you thinking about money instead of contemplating your personal destruction. What law firms refer to as “bonuses” would be considered “tips” in the banking or corporate executive world, where they actually have bonuses – profit-sharing arrangements, linked to real achievement, that amount to a major portion of their compensation.
There used to be a thing called “making partner.” You worked for about 6 or 7 years and did really well and learned a lot and then they anointed you one of them and you made a million dollars. But there are too many lawyers and there’s not enough work. They only made more partners when it earned them more money. They aren’t making more partners.
The bottom line: Mike Tyson will destroy you in the ring because that’s what he does. He’s a heavy-weight champion and they destroy people in the ring.
A big law firm is just like Mike: it will destroy you because that’s what it does. It is designed to incentivize partners to bring in as much work as possible and assign as much of that work as possible to stressed associates and work them as hard as possible to make as much money as possible for the partners. That destroys people.
Associates rarely storm out of firms. Like Anne Rice says in one of her vampire novels: Old vampires never die, they’re eternal – they fade away. Associates stop trying at some point. You acquire that “marked for death” look – the fatigue, the resignation. You’re not even making an effort. You don’t even care about reaching the ultimate lawyer dream: paying off the loans and achieving zero net worth. The only priority left at this point is avoiding work, not receiving the dreaded next assignment. You don’t wait for the bad review – you long for it. Bring it already. Get it over with.
Law firm money finally stops coming in, and (forgive me one more fantasy novel allusion) – like Gollum losing the One Ring, you will lose the purpose behind your existence. My precioussss!!! And then it’s gone….You crawl away, miserable, broken in mind, body and spirit.
Another associate, identical to you in every way, takes your place within hours.
For those who ask me why I’m so angry and bitter and why I think all big law firm lawyers are unhappy and all big law firms bad places – I invite you to take the $3 million challenge. Go ahead – step into the ring with The Baddest Man on the Planet. Who knows? Maybe you’ll be happy there. It might all turn out okay. I might be overly negative. You know – it’s only the unhappy lawyers who see The People’s Therapist. Self-selection, that’s all.
Be my guest. Jump in the ropes and prove me wrong. Maybe Mike’s different now. He’s vegan. He loves pigeons. It can’t be that bad. Think what you’ll do with all that money…
========
This piece is part of a series of columns presented by The People’s Therapist in cooperation with AboveTheLaw.com. My thanks to ATL for their help with the creation of this series.
If you enjoy these columns, please check out The People’s Therapist’s new book, Way Worse Than Being a Dentist: The Lawyer’s Quest for Meaning
I also heartily recommend my first book, an introduction to the concepts behind psychotherapy, Life is a Brief Opportunity for Joy
(Both books are also available on bn.com and the Apple iBookstore.)
The People's Therapist 
You seem bitter, ever though about seeing a therapist?
Yeah, I though about it all the time.
At least the DSM-V is going to contain Post Traumatic Embittermnet Disorder, right?
PTED – The diagnosis-de-jour for Big Law attorneys.
A lot of people put up with a lot of crap for a lot less than $160k a year… I know dozens of people who put in 100+ hour work weeks for A LOT less, in fact…
I’ve got to say, I’ve long read these posts with interest, but for the past few weeks, it seems, the theme has simply been: biglaw is horrible. I think this point has been made. You no longer write about the psychology of working at a law firm, or being a lawyer generally, it’s just: if you work for biglaw, you’re miserable, and minor variations on that theme. I really don’t think anyone needs to be further informed of this point, there is a great deal of evidence for that, on this blog and elsewhere.
I would also like to provide a ray of hope to those at biglaw. I worked for large NYC law firms for 7 years, and I, like most people, was very unhappy doing so. However, I lived beneath my means, and I assiduously saved my money. A few months ago, I found a job working in the Attorney General’s office of a small New England state, where the cost of living is low(er), the people value quality of life, the work is interesting and allows me to do some real good in the world, and everyone has a lot more perspective. And, importantly, I’m sitting on a pile of money that I saved in NYC, which let me take the enormous pay cut.
So I would say to those unhappy souls in biglaw — all is not lost. Save your money, don’t buy a place that you can only afford by continuing to work in biglaw, think about the kind of law you really wanted to practice when you started law school, and accept that you can be a lot happier making a lot less money, though you may have to leave your big city to do so (and that’s not such a bad thing). Stick to the plan, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Nicely done. Wise.
BigLaw should rapidly lead to no debt, that’s for sure.
If you aren’t gaining net worth at a rapid clip, you’re doing something wrong.
Please crunch the numbers, and tell me how many years it takes to pay down $240,000 in loans. Not all that rapidly, I’d wager.
Let’s see with the numbers.
I had $120,000 (some at 10% interest) and made $80,000 starting out (with little bonus and little annual raise).
I put approximately 100% of disposable income toward debt reduction.
The key is to put at least 50% of your gross income toward debt reduction.
It took me about 4 years or so.
So, I would wager $240,000 in BigLaw (interest rates are lower these days), starting at $160,000 (plus bonus) should require about 3.5 years or so.
JP, I think the problem is that when you earn that type of income you’re supposed to dress the part and basically have the lifestyle that goes with the income… Most of my BL friend really don’t live like students. I know they should and it’s their own fault and so on but I think overall that’s why it takes them realistically a lot longer to reduce those law school debt.
That said, I wouldn’t know anything about it personally since I’ve not incurred law school debt but I’ve never earned anything above “the Starbucks Barrista salary” on your scale of salaries (loved that scale by the way 😉 )
The Fake Frog says:
“JP, I think the problem is that when you earn that type of income you’re supposed to dress the part and basically have the lifestyle that goes with the income… Most of my BL friend really don’t live like students. I know they should and it’s their own fault and so on but I think overall that’s why it takes them realistically a lot longer to reduce those law school debt.”
Yep. I actually lowered my standard of living after graduating from law school/getting married. And I’ve never really increased it since then.
My wife hates debt, including mortgage debt. I also complained about the reduction in my standard of living, but then I was the genius who got the $120,000 in debt for the $80,000 job (back in the late 90s).
It took me longer to pay off the mortgage debt, mostly because I started contributing to my 401(k).
And I will also admit that saving 50% of your gross salary is annoying, even for people who are saving that much. But the alternative of non-dischargable debt serfdom is worse.
Full disclosures:
I came out of law school with about $140K in loans — and that was NYU law, arguably one of the most expensive law schools in the country. I actually only worked 3 years in a true “BigLaw” firm, the rest of the time was at large class action firms in NYC, making about 70% what I was making at BigLaw. I still have about $60K in loans left, but I lucked out in that the rates I locked in are somewhere south of 2% — so I made the financial decision that I’d rather be sitting on the cash and paying the bare min loans every month, though if I wanted to I could pay them off all at once. During my time practicing I also bought a place and invested, suffering the same stock market disasters and bubble bursting as everyone else, but I still seem to be doing ok.
My key was really obsessing over how much I was putting away every month. I tracked my savings on spreadsheets and seriously overpaid my loans during those few years of BigLaw salary. The place I bought was modest and in Brooklyn, and not the most expensive neighborhood. I took some vacations, but nothing elaborate. I bought the clothes I needed, but nothing more (I was proud that throughout my entire 7 years in NYC law, I only owned one suit — thank you business casual). I didn’t own a car. If I bought a big ticket item (like a TV), I thought long and hard about it, and read consumer reports. My biggest expense was probably going out for dinner and drinks with friends, or going on dates — that does seem unavoidable if you want a social life in NYC.
There were times, honestly, when I realized that my penny pinching was negatively impacting the happiness I was having in NYC. But as I sit here, staring out at the mountains and the trees, having not thought “I hate my job” in many months, I realize that it was in fact worth it.
One piece of advice: pick up a copy of “The Millionaire Next Door” — it changed my entire way of thinking about finances.
Saw this linked at reddit.com/r/law
http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/gp2zw/biglaw_not_worth_it_thoughts_rlawyers/
“But there are too many lawyers and there’s not enough work.”
Bingo. Even if you do make partner (say, in a regional firm) you are as vulnerable and powerless as an associate. Even equity partners are vulnerable.
So, do your own thing, build your own thing, go into another line of work – whatever works for you, because the profession does NOT have a safe, secure, paradise-like place to go. Anyone can fall with enough client losses (and loss isn’t necessarily the client firing you – it can be the client going out of business, being the target in an acquisition, etc.).
It’s not just big law. My wife is at a small firm and has the same issues. I even know solo practitioners who are completely burnt out. I would say the law in general is Mike in this situation, not just big law.
Also, I can’t stop reading the URL for this site as anything other than “the peoples the rapist”…
Will,
You’ve gotten a bit apocalyptic lately about the certain dangers of life in Big Law. Can I point out another self-selection issue? The people you see are long-term associates. It may be that they were amongst the cohort who had that American Lawyer Dream, but perhaps their golden handcuffs were a bit too tight. What about those who keep the faith and the plan: Go for two or three years, pay off the bulk of your loans while spending like you’re still in college, spend as much of the firm’s pro bono budget as possible and then use that resume line to get into another line of work quick? In your estimation, are these people kidding themselves, or could those be the happy lawyers who aren’t walking in the door?
Yes, for some, living the monastic life of a law firm associate is grueling, thankless and in the end, as you said, not worth it. Many drop out and pursue other careers, just as you did. This is not a new phenomenon borne of gen y’ers, gen x’ers of millennials. I’ve seen this trend over the 35 years I have been in the profession.
But, for many young lawyers, “being in the ring” brings many rewards that are not solely financial. While the work may be arduous often, the intellectual challenges are frequently extremely stimulating. There is an indescribable thrill in working at breakneck speed dealing with a TRO and rushing back to the office with hands raised high shouting “we won.” After working weeks on end, virtually around the clock, preparing for and then conducting a trial, there is no greater adrenaline rush I have ever seen or enjoyed. Closing an important transaction is eminently rewarding. Solving a thorny legal problem for a client brings great satisfaction. I would presume that you now derive similar great pleasures in solving your clients’ problems, as well you should.
All large law firms are not Mike Tysons, nor do they all devour their young. During my 25 years of actively practicing law and during the twenty years I have served as a consultant to large and mid-size law firms, it has been my experience that most firms do genuinely concern themselves deeply with the welfare and quality of their associates’ professional lives. They do so because it is humane, civil and, frankly good for business. In short, the few Mike Tysons of this world themselves may wind up battered, bruised, reputationally soiled and suffering from too much shock to the brain. But the bulk of the Big Law world does have genuine concern for the quality of their associates lives and the satisfaction they derive from plying their profession. You can read more about this at http://kowalskiandassociatesblog.com/2010/09/13/associate-job-satisfaction-why-law-firms-should-care/
This only works if you find winning or closing a transaction meaningful and enjoyable – once many lawyers realize that they really don’t like law at all, never did, or that the tedium:stimulation ratio is out of whack, the “woo hoo we won!” moment is just “eh, whatever.”
This realization can be triggered by recognizing rampant fraud and dishonesty in the billable hour system, or the ridiculousness of the precedent system (we’re gonna do it this way because we always have!) and the inhuman/antihuman nature of our legal system (the Code and Treasury Regs? make any human work with those and you’ll warp him forever).
And those lawyers, with those “I don’t like this” realizations are not defective – frankly I find the people who get a little too deeply into “I’m a big important lawyer” to be the scary ones (so you closed a deal that 50-100 other local attorneys could have closed too? yeah, that’s special).
MS says:
“once many lawyers realize that they really don’t like law at all, never did, or that the tedium:stimulation ratio is out of whack, the “woo hoo we won!” moment is just “eh, whatever.””
This seems to be more of a problem with life itself. The tedium:stimulation ratio being out of whack, that is.
I mean, life is pretty darn dull and unenjoyable. Work, such as law, on the other hand, tends to be actively painful to experience, hence not working, while boring, is perferable to the unpleasantness of work.
Mmmm . . . sorry, not buying it. The last 35 years has not been the same for the legal industry. Check when billable hours requirements started increasing, when firms started expanding to become international corporations, take that into consideration, then compare.
The life I lead as a mid-level associate is NOT the same as my boss, who started at my firm in the early 70s and made partner in due course. Partners who started back when tend to forget that.
A “genuine concern for the quality of their associates lives and the satisfaction they derive from plying their profession”? Yeah, and Mike is kind to birds.
But actually, I kind of like the Courtney Love analogy proposed by another poster, precisely *because*of the kind of propaganda in your post. I always shy off of the abusive relationship analogy when I describe my former life in big law, because I don’t want to seem to be trivializing situations in which people can be subject to literal rather than metaphorical physical assault. But the psychology of being in a big firm, for me, was just like a couple of truly pathological relationships that are also in my past (fortunately for me, also emotionally rather than physically abusive). After a while, you start to accept the assessment of the people who are constantly telling you that you are an f-up. You keep thinking that it is *you*, that if you can only do better, try harder, stay up 3 nights in a row instead of just 2, then you will win that rare pat on the head or get to be a real (and not just a paper-pushing, draft-creating) part of one of those moments of professional satisfaction that you describe. The moment I finally broke is when I slaved for weeks of sleepless nights preparing for a high-stakes arbitration that I had been working on for over a year and then arrived on the morning of the proceeding and was confronted with a horrified and angry partner — I wasn’t actually supposed to *attend* the proceeding, even as a document jockey. He had taken it for granted that I knew that my role was to crawl back into whatever hole I came from until my services were again needed. I had been duped into thinking that it was “my” case and “my” client too, into actually caring about the outcome and feeling a sense of satisfaction in representing the client well and fighting hard for its interests. In retrospect that all sounds trivial, even to me — lots of people, most people, work extraordinarily hard for nothing more than a pay check, every day. They don’t expect anything akin to “professional satisfaction” or in many cases basic human respect. Boo freaking hoo — I didn’t get to attend the arbitration. But after 3 years at Harvard Law School (working very hard and racking up some serious debt) I was fooled by the B.S. (again, like that in your post) into considering myself a member of a “learned profession” with fiduciary duties and (gasp) the chance of feeling a sense of accomplishment and self-respect about a job well done. And then I realized, in instant of embarrassment and shock, that the partner viewed me not as an attorney working with him to represent the client but like any tool — his computer, a pen — that he used in *his* preparation for the arbitration. No one, no matter how menial their job, deserves to be treated as a non-agent, purely a means to an end. And unlike most people who just put in a day’s work and collect their pay, my work was unending. I didn’t go off shift and get to hang out with my friends, eat dinner with my family, or go to the movies. I didn’t even get to sleep. And as Will points out, people need sleep. Over the course of the year before the arbitration, I nearly destroyed my health. My weight dropped well into the underweight range, I started getting weird skin infections that wouldn’t go away (I later learned due to a seriously depressed immune system, never satisfactorily explained, since Big Law Associate Syndrome is not a recognized diagnosis) and nose bleeds. I had no real friends, hardly any connection with my family and nothing in my life outside of work except the basics of physical survival. But when I did finally physically collapse, a few weeks after the arbitration incident, and ended up hospitalized, the people at the firm, the ones who were supposed to care so much about my wellbeing and professional satisfaction? They were just mad because I wasn’t there when they needed me. For about a minute. Then they just got another associate and moved right along. The great thing about Will’s posts for me is that for the first time since I got out I realize that it wasn’t just me or even just the two firms I worked at. I understood that intellectually before, but I don’t think I really believed it — deep down I was still the emotionally-abused spouse who has bought into the abuser’s world view.
Thank you very much for sharing this. You put into words what I have been feeling lately about being merely a “means to an end,” as opposed to a valued employee/part of a team. The “crawl back into whatever hole you came from” part left me cold. Luckily, my situation is a lot better than yours was, but your comment eloquently captures what I believe is a universal desire to find meaning in and recognition for one’s work.
THANK YOU for providing a balanced counterpoint.
This post made me laugh. It was completely charming, in much the same way that unicorns are.
Spoken like a true lawyer, kowalskiandassociates. Only someone who has been in it for 35 years and is utterly institutionalised could seriously come out with the sort of lines and buzzwords you’d expect to find on a website advertising for more cannon fodder to join the party and work until they burn out – “there is an indescribable thrill” is there? And let’s not forget the “intellectual stimulation” and the “genuine concern” these firms have for the “quality of their associates lives”. Really? What’s indescribably thrilling about it? Are you sure those people racing along at “breakneck speed” (please!) with “hands raised high shouting we won!” weren’t screaming inside whilst putting on a show for the partners fondly watching them whilst counting the money sailing into their back pockets? Are you sure those people weren’t going home and collapsing in utter despair and exhaustion, whilst at the same time berating themselves for never quite being good enough. Because if they were, they would have done it quicker, right? Or perhaps they would have socked in a higher bill. Or maybe they wouldn’t feel tired because the “thrill” of it ought to be enough.
Thank goodness for blogs like this, that’s all I can say. Because only when you read them can you really see the insanity of the law firm mentality and realise that there is hope of never having to hear it or see it again if you can find a way out! And actually, it’s not just “BigLaw”. How typical that Big Lawyers fail to think of their smaller counterparts. The same mentality pervades all of it.
I don’t think I’ve ever said balls or words that rhymed with balls so many times in a
paragraph. Muscles atrophy when not used, so do the cells in the brain. But it’s a good
thing and most of these developers need to sit down and take notes on an old
school horror game.
Frauds and scams occur in many forms and shapes, ranging from dishonest practices
in mixing your fund with their firm’s one, executing your
orders at your disadvantage, re-quotes, ‘legally’ trading
against their clients, back office manipulation; to larger scales like ‘stealing’ millions or
even billions of dollars from investors or traders’ funds.
Smart analysts learned to look at the big picture, to skip the minor details
and examine trends over a longer period of time. Some
simply send out alerts every 24 hours, offering the latest info on the unitfx market.
Did big bad bigwa hurt you? There there.
Aww…did my post hurt your feelings? Did I bum you out about your big impwessive biglaw caweer? There there.
WOW! And you are a THERAPIST? I can’t believe someone just goaded you into THAT. You should be embarassed,
I’m sorry…but is there some rule that therapists have to be goodie-goodies in Bill Cosby cardigans who never say what they really think? Therapy is about authenticity and awareness, not artificiality and let’s pretend. I keep it real. That’s why I’m a good therapist.
I also keep it straight up gangsta, because that’s how we do, me and my crew.
While I really like this blog, I think this post is an insult to how bad, and how quickly, Mike Tyson can f*** you up. Anyone who is a true boxing fan can attest to that.
I don’t like the comparison of working in BigLaw with earning 3 million for a brief match with Tyson, which could result in almost instant death or permanent disability. Also, losing or getting hurt by Tyson probably won’t result in any emotional disturbance–you expect to get your assed whipped, quickly–that’s the point.
With BigLaw the money is much less than 3 million (unless you’re an overperformer for 25 years), and the injuries are more emotional and psychological than physical (although point taken on sleep deprivation). Also, these injuries are gradual, not experienced in a period of minutes.
I only note this because I believe the comparison dilutes the point that is being made–and results in a loss of credibility to the author. Perhaps a better comparison would be entering into a long term relationship with Courtney Love. Easy to get in, hard to get out. And you leave devasted, broke and hooked on drugs and alcohol.
I get that the Tyson comparison is a sensational lead-in, but I just wish the lead-in was little more analogous.
Very on point – the analogy is great. There’s always someone willing to take the risk, who thinks they are the one to beat Tyson … and maybe they will, but is it worth it? My goal in biglaw has been to stay as long as I get more out of it than it takes from me, and I’m happy to say that in the middle of my 4th year, I’m on my way out with the experience I was looking for, the financial base I wanted, and my sanity (mostly) in place. But there has been a price to be paid – I have questioned myself more over the past four years than ever before, my ego took more than a bruising, and I work with some incredibly bitter people. Not to say it was all bad — I learned a lot about myself, what I am willing to tolerate and not tolerate, and that when some guy who made partner (for some mysterious and unknown reason) says my work isn’t what he wanted, that doesn’t define me and certainly doesn’t mean my work isn’t good. The ultimate danger, in my opinion, of big law is when everyone begins to the believe the PR – whether it’s that you’re crap or that you’re so important you can treat other people like crap.
I was stunned to read this post–it so accurately described my experience with a big law firm and the considerable toll it took on my body and mind.
I worked at a big firm for four years, and I spend the entire last year waiting for the other shoe to drop. And when it did, I wish I could say I was relieved. I had been dreading it for so long, I thought I would be more satisfied when I was asked to go. Instead, it was sort of anti-climactic.
In any case, its hard for me to decide what is more sad: having you describe exactly how I felt at my job without ever having met me, or knowing that you’ve seen dozens of people who felt exactly like I did. Both are sad, really.
I’m glad you’re at least limiting this article to BigLaw. I was getting the impression lately that you felt that all law practice is soul-crushing and terrible. I quit BigLaw after one year because I realized that I could be miserable at home for free rather than being miserable working all the time.
I switched to family law. I work for the best family law boutique in my town, and I LOVE my job. I respect the partners I work for and can see myself in their shoes someday. I like and trust the associates I work with. Part of my caseload is smaller cases that are all mine — I make executive decisions, I handle the mediations and trials, I plan the strategy with the clients. The other part of my caseload is big cases where I work with a partner. I get to research interesting issues and learn by watching the partner handle the big stuff.
At a smaller firm, I actually see the mechanics of running a firm – bringing in clients, billing, collecting, etc. I like where I’m at, but if I wanted to, I would be capable of having my own practice.
I only earn 2/3 the money I used to, but I have a lot more happiness and value in my new job that was well worth the pay cut.
Is “family law” a euphemism for expensive divorces and endless, vicious custody battles between rich people? God, I hope not.
Mmmm, I think of my job as more similar to a paramedic — I respond to the scene of the crash and get people patched up and limping forward as best as possible.
I actually like the human element of law, dealing with people’s feelings and things they really care about. I feel like the work I do is important to people.
I also like that I can have an interesting law job AND make money at it. I don’t like that a lot of discussions assume there’s a binary choice between miserable/money and happy/nonprofit.
About a year ago, a non-profit I served on the board of had some… er… financial improprieties. Under AZ Law I tried to get the financial records and the President and Treasurer refused. I filed a records request and attempted to get a TRO to keep them from removing me from the board because they incorrectly called a meeting. Anyway, that is the short story.
In the process of all this, I worked with the Law School at my Alma Mater (Go Devils!) for some pro bono advice. Like vultures venturing near my dehydrated carcass near the road, I was in a weakened state and the admissions office started suggesting Law School. The thrill of going into court and trying to get a TRO, etc., all seemed novel and exciting to me.
As I negotiated with the non-profit’s lawyer who steadfastly refused to provide me the records, he started threatening me with “You don’t know the law and you will find that your ‘google law degree’ is no match for a real law degree.”
That sentence stuck with me. I replay it over and over. You have $100k in debts and graduated middle of the pack from a second tier public law program a year ago (Linked In is great for finding info about adversaries) and your dream of working for Big Law and making $160,000 a year turned into working for a small law firm making probably $80k a year threatening laymen to keep a youth football organization from releasing their financials because the layman filed in Superior Court to get them.
I may not be a lawyer, but my law degree from the University of South Google was free and I make six figures in my field, work from home, have rarely worked more than 45 hours per week, and have job stability. Every time I read an article like this, his comments and smugness replay over and over in my mind. Unfortunately, the law is written by lawyers and designed so that lawyers do have the upper hand even against an intelligent layman. Have fun with that fine legal knowledge. I have never been so happy that I am not a 1L right now.
In reply to EB, my own experience when I started to practice 35 years ago was in fact working for what was then the second largest law firm in the world with five domestic offices and one in London. Yes, there were minimum annual billing requirements even in those days. I had a run of 2,600+ years. I also was required to travel extensively; there was even one year when I slept in hotels for 150 nights. Yes, I worked very hard and did have to deal with abusive partners, abusive clients, abusive adversaries and abusive courts. I made partner in a bit less than “due course,’ I was promoted to the partnership in my sixth year out of school. As a young partner, I worked even harder and added to the pressure to continue to log the hours, there was then also the pressure to bill and collect, supervise associates, build my own client base and the palace intrigues of the partnership. Be assured, being a young partner is actually more difficult in many respects than being a young associate. So to “Another Big Law Casualty,” who commented above here, I can honestly say, I feel your pain (http://kowalskiandassociatesblog.com/2011/02/28/minders-finders-and-grinders-towards-a-more-rational-system-of-law-firm-partner-compensation/ )
Does that mean that there is just more tunnel at the end of the tunnel? In some important respects, that is certainly the fact.
Did those years take a toll on me? Absolutely. My marriage failed, but in hindsight, I can fairly say that the time away from home because of the long hours and travel probably resulted in the marriage lasting at least ten years longer than it should have. And yes, there were many, many days which infuriated me. But, I worked on many high profile matters that attracted a great deal of media and professional attention. I served as counsel to important foreign governments, to former leaders of several nations, to a variety of celebrities, I tried (and won) important cases. I derived a great deal of satisfaction and personal pride in practicing law.
But I, for one, do not look back at those years as time in the Gulag.
Practicing law in Big Law created opportunities for me that I would not otherwise have enjoyed. The pleasure did in fact come with some real pain. But in life’s calculus of pain and pleasure, that is an algorithm that each person must calculate for himself or herself.
Among my current more pleasurable pursuits, I spend some spare time writing my memoirs. The passage of time allows me to look back at those years with some objectivity and when I am asked “was it worth it?” my answer is always in the affirmative.
“Did those years take a toll on me? Absolutely. My marriage failed, but in hindsight, I can fairly say that the time away from home because of the long hours and travel probably resulted in the marriage lasting at least ten years longer than it should have.
… The passage of time allows me to look back at those years with some objectivity and when I am asked “was it worth it?” my answer is always in the affirmative.”
Jesus Christ. With all due respect to Mr. Kowalski, I can’t imagine many balanced people thinking that a failed marriage would be worth his professional success as a lawyer.
No, you’re missing the point.
Working at BigLaw *lengthened* the marriage by limiting the time he was forced to spend with his then-wife.
That means that BigLaw encourages, rather than discourages, divorce.
This is really sad – someone please shoot me if I’m ever coming up with excuses for how law didn’t “really” fuck up something meaningful and important in life (because I didn’t notice anyway/didn’t care anyway/wasn’t conscious at the time ergo didn’t notice).
Refreshed goal in life – always, always, always remain human.
Thank you for reminding me it’s ok to be human!
I’ve recently made the decision to leave biglaw… after only 7 months. Needless to say I have toiled with this decision immensely, and I understand the consequences this will have, at least particularly concerning my law firm career. My over-achiever-went-to-UCBerkeleylaw-must-always-please-everyone part of me feels like a failure. But my I-swear-I’m-a-human-being-and-need-to-have-family-and-friends part of me knows in my heart this is the decision I have to make, for myself, and for the people in my life that I care about and don’t want to lose.
I am actually moving to Rome for love, to move in with my Canadian boyfriend (yes its complicated)
who lives there and needs me right now. I plan to teach English to Italian attorneys until I can rethink what I want to do. I went straight from college to law school and got herded into becoming a biglaw sheep much like everyone else, it was just what you do, the next step. Now I’m realizing I’m 25 and I hate what the rest of this life looks like. So I’m taking a breather, regrouping and trying to figure out what part of the legal world will work for me.
I am not entirely sure that biglaw is awful for everyone, but I think that working hours like this, especially with the unpredictability, inevitably has a serious effect on your personal relationships. Even with my boyfriend across the world I find it hard to squeeze in a skype session for 10 minutes, sneaking my personal laptop into work so that I may do so. Whether or not those relationships are truly important to you is something everyone has to decide for themselves.
I had to make my decision and only time will tell if it’s the right one. But I believe in ranking happiness as higher up on the priority scale, and I think that this is the first step to achieving it.
This guy is hysterical.
His sheer excitement about getting a TRO reminds me of this book “The Year of Living Biblically” where a guy follows all of the bible’s obscure rules for a year. At one point he meets this old Jewish guy who’s job is to make sure that a person isn’t wearing two different fibers, which the bible bans. The old Jewish guy is able to discern that the author is indeed wearing two different fibers and is so elated that he tells the author “I’ve never done drugs, but this is what I imagine it feels like.” It’s kind of adorable and sad at the same time.
Also, I like how he says the law didn’t cost him his ten year marriage, but rather elongated it. So basically “because of my legal job I wasted my youth in a ten year, dead end relationship with a woman that, had I stopped to catch my breath, I would have divorced immediately.”
And the bit about writing his memoirs is perfect, too. I’m sure the autobiography of a man who considers a TRO to be the adrenaline-soaked pinnacle of human experience will be a thumping good read.
Keep this stuff coming, man.
Why is nobody pointing out that the long hours and problems described here are exactly the same for doctors? Four years of med school to get to a three-seven year residency of working 80+ hour weeks before you get into practice, then years of 50 hour weeks in the office plus all the on-call work and doing rounds at 6AM before heading to the office to see patients all day? Crushing student loan debt that you incur before you realize the toll the job takes and then once you are in, not being able to get out because of the crushing student loan debt?
Just like in law, there are the millionaire plastic surgeons and orthopods and the family practice docs making $100k a year who struggle to pay back their student loans because they didn’t have the grades or go to the right med school or have the right connections to get a good residency. Works just like getting hired into Big Law and then fighting to make partner.
But our society still loves and respects doctors and lawyers and we still tell our kids to go to medical or law school.
Just be thankful. You could have the same kind of crushing debt and have spent the extra three years in school getting a Masters Degree in Women’s Studies instead of a law degree. At least you have the POTENTIAL to make six figures out of school so you have a CHANCE to pay back your student loans. There are worse things.
It’s better to be a nurse anesthestist than a GP. No one aspires to be a GP anymore. Very low status in doctor world and low pay.
I suppose the moral of the story is that if you can’t become a dermaotologist, radiation oncologist, neurosurgeon, cardiologist, opthamologist, etc, (because of your class rank) it’s best to cut your losses while still in med school.
In law school, it’s often best to cut your losses by *not going* to law school.
There’s a difference. At least you can win the lottery in doctorworld with (relative) ease.
For instance, in dermatology, you are already making $300,000+ and working 4 days a week at age 32.
I am so glad I didn’t go to Law School. I think you are right that you can cut your losses with Med School and there are all kinds of avenues available to you. There are thousands of residencies available, etc.
I would much rather be a GP than a grad of a 4th tier law school getting paid $60k a year to do Doc Review because your law degree is all but worthless and there are no legal jobs that will hire you.
And honestly, I would take just about any nursing job over law or medical school which require grad degrees. As an RN with AN ASSOCIATE’S DEGREE, you can make six figures if you want to work the kind of hours an average associate in Big Law does. If you want to work 60 hrs a week as a nurse, that is 5 x 12 hour shifts. You still have two days off a week and at 60hrs per week, you will in all probability earn around $100-120k per year. WITH A 2 YEAR DEGREE. It probably takes 3-4 years to earn it, but let’s even say a 4 year BSN…
With a 4 year BSN, the cost of the degree is exactly the same as a 4 year degree all Lawyers have to get. So let’s say that at the point you both get your BS, Lawyers and Nurses start at effectively EVEN in Year0. Now, while you are in law school, you rack up $100k in debt at a second tier public school. The nurse in question makes $100k per year working an extra shift a week or 48 hrs instead of 36-40. At the end of law school, the Nurse has made $300k in income while you are $100k in debt. That means that at Y 0+3, the Nurse is $400k better off than the lawyer.
If the lawyer gets a job at Big Law and the Lawyer makes $160k while the nurse makes $100k, it takes 6.5 years before the Lawyer catches the nurse, not inclusive of raises and bonuses. Maybe let’s say by Year 0+8, the Lawyer and Nurse get back to even. At that point, the ROI of the law degree starts happening. BUT REMEMBER THIS IS IF THE LAWYER GETS A JOB AT BIG LAW.
If the lawyer does not get a job at Big Law, I am not sure he/she ever catches the lowly Nurse with a BSN. And the nurse probably has tuition reimbursement and can get an MBA / Masters in Healthcare Admin and move up into hospital management which we are not even factoring in.
Justin B says:
“If the lawyer gets a job at Big Law and the Lawyer makes $160k while the nurse makes $100k, it takes 6.5 years before the Lawyer catches the nurse, not inclusive of raises and bonuses. Maybe let’s say by Year 0+8, the Lawyer and Nurse get back to even. At that point, the ROI of the law degree starts happening.”
I ran the breakeven when I went to law school vs. my chemical engineering undergrad degree.
I hit breakeven at about 12 years back in the mid-1990s. Considering I still make exactly what I made when I first got out of law school ten years ago, it’s probably going to end up more like “never”. But that is assuming no layoffs on either side of the equation.
I was a paralegal for five years at some wonderful firms. In my experience, many of the lawyers I worked for were relatively happy (or at least content) with their work. Legal work is important, clients pay big bucks to have their legal issues handled by dedicated, intelligent people. I ultimately chose not to attend law school, but I’m glad that law school is so freaking expensive. For many rational people, the expense of law school creates a barrier to entry into the profession. This is not necessarily a bad thing; it means only the most committed individuals who are willing to mortgage their future for a shot at a legal career end up going for it. The same is true for medical school.
The problem is that for some, student loans are treated more like free money than something that really has to be paid back. Thus student loans function like a subsidy in the higher ed market, dramatically driving up tuition costs.
There is no guarantee of making millions in any line of work. In the United States, we enjoy a relatively comfortable standard of living– you can f— up your finances and still eat, and have clothing and shelter and live in peace. Assuming you don’t need to drive a fancy car and are willing to live with roommates and eat at home, you are free to do pretty much whatever you want, career-wise. Most of us will “be fine” whether we live on 35K per year or 350K per year. Obviously you can’t live in NYC on 35K, but that’s the great thing about America– you can live somewhere like Des Moines at that salary. And if you have to live in NYC, then you can find a way to make NYC money without a law degree.
As Will has noted previously, another major issue with the legal profession is that the time spent getting the grades/LSAT to get into law school, getting through law school, and then paying off loans generally are all-consuming enterprises. Meaning that people engaged in these activities simply do not have time to explore their passions, to figure out how to really manage money (hence the urgency to make 160k– with that much money, you can pretend that you have a cushion for mismanagement), or to learn how to make meaningful relationships. College and law school socialization revolves around binge drinking, and then what little time working attorneys have for socialization is spent desperately clinging to some notion of wealth/importance by dining at the “best” restaurants, staying at the best hotels, etc. Hence the social awkwardness and inauthentic relationships.
In short, each of us knows when we love something. If you love law, then go for it! For many of us though, the ego comes in with its rationalizations about prestige or high salaries, and our judgment gets fuzzy. Do what you love. And if you don’t know what that is yet, then purposefully wait, keep doing what you are doing, and it will eventually come to you.
Will:
I appreciate that your experience in biglaw wasn’t satisfying, and that many people don’t enjoy the work or the life, but you need to stop generalizing.
I work in the NY office of a big firm (1100+ internationally) and I am quite happy here. I’m not as happy as I would be playing baseball for a living, but as far as jobs go, I don’t see it getting much better. I work hard at times, very hard on occasion, and not so hard other times, and I make much more than most of my peers.
I love the people I work with, I love the people I work for (admittedly except for one senior associate I avoid) and the environment is very pleasant to practice law in.
Do I want this life forever? Probably not. Do I dislike not having complete control over my schedule? Of course. It’s still a job, not a playhouse, but my point is that it’s not as bad for me as you make it out to be.
Furthermore, this isn’t just me. Many of my college/law school friends work at big firms, and except for a couple, all of them are perfectly happy.
You had a bad experience, many of your clients had/have bad experiences, but many of us biglaw lawyers are quite happy/content. You should keep that in mind before you spew out article after article about how horrible biglaw is, and how misguided we are for choosing to work in it.
Good day.
How many hours did you bill last year?
I don’t comment on here but I have to say, in response to the above, that I have a hard time understanding why people post comments on other people’s blogs, saying that they do not like what the blogger is choosing to write about. If you’re tired of what Will is writing, MOVE ON. Aren’t there plenty of “isn’t-the-legal-industry-fabulous” blogs with sufficient variety for those of you who think Will is generalizing too much or running out of ideas?
No one asked you for your opinion on what should be covered on this blog. I know some people are trying to inject perspective and give a different viewpoint, and that is great, a far as it goes. But to complain that you are sick of the writing, or you’re concerned about the author for not changing subjects indicates that you are under the misguided notion that Will is writing to please you.
The reality is that biglaw really CAN be, and I would bet most often IS, a HORRIBLE horrible place to spend your 20s or 30s (or 40s). Sure, there are exceptions. For those who love it, great. Good for you–we all wish we felt that way. But in my experience (also at a big v20 law firm in NYC) you are the exception.
Now, to be fair, in my firm, the partners are pretty good people. They don’t really want to destroy us but if it happens that we are destroyed in the course of our associate careers, well, that’s how it goes, it’s not their fault, and their priority will be to staff their matters. You can’t blame them for that. They are responsible for their matters.
And, we are fungible, as Will points out. I don’t necessarily agree with the analogy of Mike Tyson in the ring but it sure feels that way at times. Most of the time. For me and my friends at my firm and other similar firms (dozens of them), we are miserable. There are a few moments of happiness in the year, but they are few. And when they happen, we are so sleep deprived that it’s hard to even enjoy anything. The sleep deprivation thing is very real for me and MANY of my friends. And it’s scary sometimes. Yes I am trying to leave, but there are hardly any jobs out there in NYC right now.
For the person who sarcastically wrote “Did big bad bigwa hurt you?” you should stay on ATL where your comment will be surrounded by other, uh, insightful wastes of space.
I like these posts. I will probably say that even after the next 20 that are just like this. It is like online therapy for me and many like me, and maybe a warning to the clueless undergrads considering lawschool without a plan. Again, if YOU don’t like them, DON’T READ THEM. The internet is vast and your reading options are many and no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this website.
Thank you Will!
I’m puzzled by people who criticize Will for purportedly “generalizing” that BigLaw life is lousy. As a “general” group of people, BigLaw attorneys ARE demonstrably and profoundly unhappy.
Who is the one avoiding the facts? Consider:
Depression: Surveys consistently show that lawyers generally rank near the top for incidences of depression. For example, a study from Johns Hopkins University found that of 104 occupations studied, lawyers ranked #1 in prevalence of depression– 3.6 times higher than average. See W.W. Eaton, Occupations and the Prevalence of Major Depressive Disorder, 32 J. Occupational Med. 1079 (1990).
Alcoholism: A Washington State estimated that 18% were “problem drinkers”– aomost twice the rate of the general adult population. See G. Andrew Benjamin, The Prevalence of Depression, Alcohol Abuse and Cocaine Abuse Among United States Lawyers, 13 Int’l J.L. Psychiatry 233, 240 (1990).
Suicide: Perhaps most sadly, lawyers contemplated suicide (ideation) at rates far higher than average, and commit suicide at rates twice the national average. See Deborah K. Holmes, Learning from Corporate America: Addressing Dysfunction in the Large Law Firm, 31 Gonz. L. Rev. 373, 377 (1995-96).
Finally, the proof is in the pudding. Why do so many associates drop like flies within 2-5 years after starting at a large law firm? Why do less than 1 in 20 now make it to partner?
This is not just a problem in BigLaw. I went to NYU and avoided those alluring BigLaw jobs that so many of my classmates were taking in favor of a boutique firm in the city, and later a mid-size firm in New England (small by NYC standards). My second firm espoused all that mumbo-jumbo about being a “lifestyle firm” but in reality it was just as soul-sucking as any other law firm. I had those exact same feelings you describe in this post. I actually hoped to get laid off, but in the end I ended up walking away and never turning back. I wish law school didn’t fool us all into being idealistic and principled. It’s such a let down when you work your whole life to excel academically, pay a fortune to attend a great school, and your reward after landing that great job is a life that sucks beyond imagination. Great article.
Will: I think these posts have a lot of potential, but they are becoming too repetitive. If you look at the comments at Above the Law as well, you will notice that a good portion of the readers feel the same. Even those who share your views on Big Law are a bit over it.
I know you are tired of hearing these complaints, but instead of responding with snarky remarks, I would reccomend that you take them to heart. If your goal is to limit your audience to the bitter and aggrieved, then I say, continue what you are doing. But if you are insterested in responding to the needs/interests of a bigger population of people, you might want to add a bit more diversity to your work.
To be honest with you, you sound like you’re are coming a bit undone. And I don’t say this to be insulting, but I think its worth paying attention to how you are perceived. And I also think the way you respond to people on this blog does you no favors either. Sometimes you come off immature, rude and unprofessional. Who wants to retain the services of a therapist who acts like that?
I’m doing fine, thanks. I’m sorry if the truth is repetitive. And no, I’ve not come undone. I’m doing just fine. If you’re looking for a bit of variety, why not give my book a try?
I don’t comment on here but I have to say, in response to the above, that I have a hard time understanding why people post comments on other people’s blogs, saying that they do not like what the blogger is choosing to write about. If you’re tired of what Will is writing, MOVE ON. Aren’t there plenty of “isn’t-the-legal-industry-fabulous” blogs with sufficient variety for those of you who think Will is generalizing too much or running out of ideas?
No one asked you for your opinion on what should be covered on this blog. I know some people are trying to inject perspective and give a different viewpoint, and that is great, a far as it goes. But to complain that you are sick of the writing, or you’re concerned about the author for not changing subjects indicates that you are under the misguided notion that Will is writing to please you.
The reality is that biglaw really CAN be, and I would bet most often IS, a HORRIBLE horrible place to spend your 20s or 30s (or 40s). Sure, there are exceptions. For those who love it, great. Good for you–we all wish we felt that way. But in my experience (also at a big v20 law firm in NYC) you are the exception.
Now, to be fair, in my firm, the partners are pretty good people. They don’t really want to destroy us but if it happens that we are destroyed in the course of our associate careers, well, that’s how it goes, it’s not their fault, and their priority will be to staff their matters. You can’t blame them for that. They are responsible for their matters.
And, we are fungible, as Will points out. I don’t necessarily agree with the analogy of Mike Tyson in the ring but it sure feels that way at times. Most of the time. For me and my friends at my firm and other similar firms (dozens of them), we are miserable. There are a few moments of happiness in the year, but they are few. And when they happen, we are so sleep deprived that it’s hard to even enjoy anything. The sleep deprivation thing is very real for me and MANY of my friends. And it’s scary sometimes. Yes I am trying to leave, but there are hardly any jobs out there in NYC right now.
For the person who sarcastically wrote “Did big bad bigwa hurt you?” you should stay on ATL where your comment will be surrounded by other, uh, insightful wastes of space.
I like these posts. I will probably say that even after the next 20 that are just like this. It is like online therapy for me and many like me, and maybe a warning to the clueless undergrads considering lawschool without a plan. Again, if YOU don’t like them, DON’T READ THEM. The internet is vast and your reading options are many and no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this website.
Thank you Will!
The comments section at Above the Law isn’t really a good argument for anything.
Nicole says:
“Assuming you don’t need to drive a fancy car and are willing to live with roommates and eat at home, you are free to do pretty much whatever you want, career-wise. Most of us will “be fine” whether we live on 35K per year or 350K per year. ”
Unless you want to engage in a multi-generational project like Joe Kennedy did with his family. Granted, he kind of failed, what with the assisinations and all.
However, something like that is at least interesting. Trying to achive multi-generational political and social ascendence.
Then you need agressive strategic and social planning and lots and lots of money.
Nicole says:
“College and law school socialization revolves around binge drinking, and then what little time working attorneys have for socialization is spent desperately clinging to some notion of wealth/importance by dining at the “best” restaurants, staying at the best hotels, etc. Hence the social awkwardness and inauthentic relationships.”
I’m not sure whether I disliked the binge drinking on the various conversion attempts made on me. It was either the immoral idiots or the fundamentalists.
I eventually chose to hang out with the fundamentalists. At least they weren’t bullying me and trying to get me to drop out of college.
I’m puzzled by people who criticize Will for purportedly “generalizing” that BigLaw life is lousy. As a “general” group of people, BigLaw attorneys ARE demonstrably and profoundly unhappy.
Who is the one avoiding the facts? Consider:
Depression: Surveys consistently show that lawyers generally rank near the top for incidences of depression. For example, a study from Johns Hopkins University found that of 104 occupations studied, lawyers ranked #1 in prevalence of depression– 3.6 times higher than average. See W.W. Eaton, Occupations and the Prevalence of Major Depressive Disorder, 32 J. Occupational Med. 1079 (1990).
Alcoholism: A Washington State estimated that 18% were “problem drinkers”– aomost twice the rate of the general adult population. See G. Andrew Benjamin, The Prevalence of Depression, Alcohol Abuse and Cocaine Abuse Among United States Lawyers, 13 Int’l J.L. Psychiatry 233, 240 (1990).
Suicide: Perhaps most sadly, lawyers contemplated suicide (ideation) at rates far higher than average, and commit suicide at rates twice the national average. See Deborah K. Holmes, Learning from Corporate America: Addressing Dysfunction in the Large Law Firm, 31 Gonz. L. Rev. 373, 377 (1995-96).
Finally, the proof is in the pudding. Why do so many associates drop like flies within 2-5 years after starting at a large law firm? Why do less than 1 in 20 now make it to partner?
The only thing that sucks more than law is lawyers.
[…] Not Worth It I was kidding around with some of the guys at my gym, tossing around the question – would you fight Mike Tyson for $3 […] […]
I’ve never worked at biglaw and I’m curious about something.
If a lawfirm pays an associate $160k to bill 80 hours a week (really work 100). Couldn’t the same law firm pay 2 associates each $80k to bill 40 hours a week (really work 50)? Or $120k to bill 60 hours a week?
Couldn’t this scale all the way up?
I think a lawyer who works reasonable hours will produce better work product than one who is absolutely unballanced and exhausted.
Wouldn’t the partners still make exactly the same money?
Partnership decisions could be made on quality of work and the potential ability bring in business and lead; not on the ability to work like a dog and lead a ridiculously unbalanced life.
Really, no – each body carries malpractice insurance, overhead and benefit costs, so evenly splitting the salary doesn’t proportionately reduce other costs. Firms would say that it is more efficient to pay one person highly and work him/her to death than to pay benefits, insurance, bar dues, overhead and CLE for 2-3 who remain sane.
And also remember that Associates are not by nature “trained lawyers” for the first few years. The firms are also putting a sizable investment into having them there the first year or two. Even billing 2500 hours per year, you are not getting the same ROI for a first year associate as for a fourth year associate because there is a learning curve I assume.
I think it is like baseball, but I am a layman. You bring in a rookie and some (very few) make the majors and hit .300 a year removed from the draft. Most (almost all) work through the minors for 2-3 years just to learn the game and even when they hit the bigs, the first year they are still starstruck.
Baseball operates on the principle that the investment in all the training pays off in years 3-4-5 when the player is still earning league minimum and producing .300 and 20 hr.
I am betting with Law (and remember I am not a lawyer), that Big Law gets their best ROI off of people in years 4-5-6-7 while associates still think there is a chance to make partner and before they start moving on and completely burning out. By that time, they have a portfolio of consistent clients, are well trained and don’t need handholding, no longer have stars in their eyes, and are so jaded and cynical that they have fallen into a routine of slave labor. Years 1-3 they are still probably married to their college sweetheart and have a life. Big Law depends on them giving that up so they can work 80 hour weeks.
If you bring in two associates, you never get the full ROI in years 4-7, and if you split the time to 40 hours per week, how do you decide which slaves to make into partners (ha… does that even happen anymore?).
Oh, quit drinking the koolaid. First year associates don’t need that much training. Otherwise federal judges wouldn’t hire them.
And rookie baseball players also come up to the Bigs and hit .300.
First year associates don’t come with their own portfolio of consistent clients. They don’t come with actual experience.
I work in IT and we hire in college grads with EE, CIS, and MIS degrees all the time. You hire them in hoping that by the time they are truly useful (Y2-3), they aren’t useful enough, experienced enough, and ballsy enough that they leave to make more money. I have never had one come in the door that I can trust enough to throw at a big project with little or no supervision. We shuffle monkey work on them until they prove their worth and gradually we increase their responsibilities.
There is always plenty of monkey work that I would rather have a 24 year old new grad doing than a 35 year old senior IT guy making 2x-3x the salary. I am not saying a first year associate is not useful, just that if I ran a firm, I would be ensuring that the important and critical work was done or overseen by people I knew and trusted. Just like in IT. If I have a major project for a high value customer that has a huge amount of business with us or is complex and mission critical, I want an experienced senior person on it.
In IT, I can do monkey work too, but I can also do Sr. Level Architecture. We don’t have any new grads that can do Sr. Level Architect work for 5-6 years without my direction. We hire new grads to free me up to do the higher profile work since I am considerably harder to replace and can do specialized work with zero supervision. Not saying a good new grad in IT needs constant handholding, just that all of the ROI is in years 3-4-5 when they are underpaid for the responsibilities we can now heap on them because they are well trained.
They don’t need us for the clients. They use us because it allows them to scale up and collect our billables.
First year associates make 2-3 times their own salary/expenses, even with write-downs. That goes up to 4-5x pretty quickly. Like I said, lay off the koolaid.
That thought is so adorable! Clearly you have never worked in Biglaw. I often wondered the same thing- countless times, really. But the problem is that even if the option of working half the hours for half the pay were available, everyone would be afraid to take it because it would mean self-identifying as ‘weak.’ So it doesn’t exist. Also the partners kind of count on you having tunnel vision because you literally don’t know what life is like on the outside. Which is why I didn’t bother looking for another Biglaw job after the last “assessment of my development areas.”
It’s interesting to compare the number of responses Will gets to a post like this, i.e. biglaw sucks – get out as soon as you can, to the comparatively few that follow one of his more optimistic or philosophical pieces. Good for you Will, you agent provocateur you.
I worked at a firm until I had a complication from having my second baby and could not go back. For me, the combination of money, in addition to the occaisional compliment from some “top” partners (I’m a pleaser) kept me going, and I would not have left if it weren’t for this disability. I still miss the work, and the paycheck was gratifying, but in trying to find a silver lining in an otherwise disastrous end to my law firm days, I’ve learned that life truly IS short. I missed a lot with my first child working so hard… and often unable to live “in the moment” when I had time to spend with family, with work worries hanging over me… After a few months I dropped off the radar of all but a few from the firm, and that was so tough to swallow, but understandable- the firm machine just goes on, and even a great associate is replaceble.
Of course, you can’t live in fear of bad things happening, and this work/life balance struggle does not apply solely to BigLaw lawyers. You have to make smart choices, but coupled with the realization that life has more to offer than work. If I had to do it all over, I’d still be a lawyer, but just at a job with better hours and consequently less money (and not let an anesthesia resident administer my epidural, but that’s another matter entirely.. ). And I’d tell anyone that the best decision I ever made was to decline my top-tier law school acceptances in favor of a scholarship to a less prestigious school, then work my tail off to get a fantastic job. Thank God I don’t have loans to worry about.
Thank you. I actually cried when I read this.
You rock.
[…] of law firm associates, helping them cope with the tribulations of BigLaw life. In his piece, “Not Worth It,” Meyerhoffer posited the question as to whether it was worth opposing Mike Tyson in a boxing […]
In New York, at least, how do you put 50% of your gross income towards debt reduction when about 45% of it goes to taxes and FICA. Are you people living in Tennessee?
I paid off my debt living in Pennsylvania making under $100,000.
First rule of debt reduction: Don’t live in NYC or D.C.
Also, I think being married helps with the taxes, too. And kids.
No, kids are expensive. Day care is ridiculously so. Btt then I live in DC.
To “Taking a Risk:”
When Alexander the Great and his conquering hoards marched in to Jerusalem in 332 BC, set to vanquish and control it, after previously doing so to much of the then known Western civilized world, rather than being confronted with armed defenders, the leaders of Jerusalem welcomed him as a conquering hero. Suspecting that he was being connived, Alexander chose to interrogate the elders to assure himself that the leadership recognized his greatness. First he asked them “who is the strongest and greatest conqueror in the world?” Their response: “He who can overcome his desire to do evil” He then asked “Who is the wisest in the world?” They responded “He who can learn from every man.” Finally, he asked, “Who is the wealthiest man in the world?” The response: “He who is satisfied with his lot.” Impressed with the wisdom of the elders, Alexander the Great provided years of peaceful and benevolent leadership to a people who lived in peace and prosperity under his leadership.
I hope your own journey will be marked with strength, wealth and wisdom, as defined by the elders of Jerusalem in 232 BC.
[…] a machismo to pulling the late night routine ? such as Will Meyerhofer, a lawyer turned psychotherapist ? studies from Harvard Medical School and […]
Thank you for validating my decision to never ever go to law school.
My pleasure.
For the past 20 years, I’ve sort of had an inside seat at BigLaw; I served as sales coach to senior partners. I stumbled across this comment thread and was reminded of some wisdom (and candor) expressed by the head of the associates’ committee at a Top 10 NYC firm: “I tell every recruit the same thing. Statistically, your chances of making partner here are very slim. Your focus should be to get your ticket punched and create options for yourself. If you spend 3-4 years here and perform well, you’ll have choices available that won’t be available if you begin at a small firm. If you want an in-house counsel job, or to go to a smaller firm, or hang out a shingle of your own, or leave the law and go into a different business, will your chances be better coming from here, or from Bob & Joe’s Law Firm?” (This is not an arrogant guy. He intended no disparagement of small firms. He used that phrase to illustrate the difference in perceived brand value associated with the experience gained under those respective banners.)
Thank you for putting law school and top law firm work in perspective. I think a degree in medicine would be awesome for me.
Working in a law firm is like a pie-eating contest where the prize is getting to eat more pie!